Thoughts on pad layout

Hey folks. I came across a YouTube video yesterday where another finger drumming tutor argued some points about pad layout. I am not sure if I should link the video here. Not trying to create any drama.

He also plays acoustic drums on Maschine but has a different pad layout. The main point is that he thinks the “mirror layout”, which I find similar as Rob’s, limits the possibilities with advanced techniques. He came from a real acoustic drumming background, and his layout allows both hands to be totally independent, which mimics the “real” drumming. He then showcases a very complex solo and argues it would be hard to achieve with “mirror layout” because that would require a lot of alternately hitting the same pad with both hands, so both the fingers and the brain maybe are locked to that, sacrificing the potential of independently playing.

I am not questioning anything from the QFG course. No doubt that Rob is a very skilful player and an excellent tutor. And the other tutor was also to trying to sh!t on anything. Just from a professional (or academic😂) perspective, what do you think of that argument? I’d very much like to hear some opinions. Cheers.

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The weird thing about the argument of the pad layout being “wrong” is that the layout has actually nothing to do with the playing style.

Basically the argument is:

  • The independent hands method of playing is better than the alternating hands method.
  • Therefore a layout that facilitates playing with the alternate hands method is an inferior layout.

This argumentation completely ignores the fact that you can play with the independent hands method on a layout that also facilitates alternating hands.

Like saying:

  • A vegetarian diet is healthy.
  • My restaurant does not serve meat.
  • Therefore it is better than this other restaurant that serves both meat and vegetarian dishes.

Ok and finally, I have to admit I know which video you’re talking about and the main thing that makes this stuff sound so virtuoso is actually the fact that he’s playing “rudiments”. Patterns between your two hands that create all of these cool sounding variations.

For example, instead of just doing RLRLRLRL you play RLLRLLRL or something like that.

I agree about rudiments being very important in taking your drumming a step further than just basic beats and fills. It doesn’t really have anything to do with drumming a basic beat with “independent hands” though. You can play rudiments on the QFG pad layout as well! You can play a basic beat the way I play it and then move into some complex rudiment pattern and then back into a basic beat and it will sound exactly like what the dude demonstrates.

Rudiment playing is taught in the building fills course and Next Level Beats course by the way. If you learn some of those patterns, and then play them fast, you got yourself some “bro, this shit is fire” playing.

I do understand what he means with regards to"always" using the alternating hands method. But what he means is if you always play the downbeat with your right hand and the upbeat with your left hand (filling in the gaps), then you don’t train your left hand to also be able to play powerful, well placed hits. But again, just like with the vegetarian restaurant, you can train to do both.

I personally use the independent hands method when it’s convenient (with the QFG layout). Especially when you need a large dynamic difference between for example the snare and the hi hat, this way of playing will make that possible. I do mention this in the new version of my beginner course by the way.

I do think I have to add one or two moments in the Grooving & Improving course and breakbeat course that mention this other way of playing and explain how it can be beneficial. Right now it’s mostly the Bossa Nova course that has this, as well as some of the playalong songs in the Monthly Challenge. So it is there, but it’s not very upfront all the time. This is how I learned it myself though… Alternating first and then slowly but surely bringing in that hand independence.

Ok and now actually finally

  • I fundamentally disagree with using the “real drummers do this” argument as a way to say your method of finger drumming is superior. Finger drumming is like the table tennis of drumming. If you want to get good at tennis, practice tennis. If you want to get good at table tennis, practice table tennis. They’re related, sure, but the physics of it are just different. Sometimes the argument holds up, but sometimes it does not… so it’s probably better to just look at how we want to do things with a clear mind and without worrying about real drum kits or real drummers too much. While of course stealing all of the handy tricks that real drummers invented and that we actually can use :slight_smile:
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Thanks a lot for your detailed explanation! That argument was really efficiently anxiety-evoking for a rookie. Now that everything is clear, I should go back to regular exercise and learning😆

BTW I really appreciate the way you explain and also teach things. It is always simply and clearly stated, no BS, while also manage to emphasise the important parts without any unnecessary repeats.

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Thank you! Have fun with the lessons and make sure to let me know if you have other questions or concerns, or you see another video from someone saying everything you do is completely wrong :slight_smile:

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hi. I’d like to add that i also watched that “other” video. And I also had this confusion and thought may be that guy was right since he played really “cool”. I even bought his pro course and tried it. Oh boy what a bad experience it was for me after Rob’s school. This guy though whith great drumming skills is definitely not as good at teaching and making courses. Quiet sloppy.

His course lacks so many things, some of them are good audio and video quality but mainly teaching music. The worst thing is that one video about layouts led me astray and I lost time which I could spend on Rob’s course. Fortunately I came back eventually.

But in anycase I just wanted to say that both layouts can be easily used. Here is an expamle of a pro beat maker using mirror layout: Moskvin - NY2023 (Sampling Club) - YouTube and V1BATTLE bass loop live fingerdrumming - YouTube

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I’ve also spent some time thinking about those competing ideas about the pad layout. What has irritated me about the argumentation from the guy who doesn’t like the mirror layout:

  • First he assumes that you completely mirror everything, reducing your sounds to 8. But in reality, you only mirror some - so I usually have 12 different sounds. And you can also have 16 different sounds if you have some smaller alterations.
  • Like @Robert_Mathijs stated, you can also play the mirror layout with hand independence. Maybe mirror layout makes it too easy to stick with alternating hands, but if you force yourself to learn hand independence I don’t see a disadvantage.
  • Maybe it’s because I spent most of my time with it and now I’m used to it, but I find a mirrored layout more ergonomic, mostly because kick, snare, hats are oriented vertically and not horizontally. This also helps to play the most important pads with both hands without getting fingers into each others way.

If you don’t care about realistic finger drumming and also trigger other sounds like melody / chords, then having 16 pads is nice. But even then, you can adapt the mirror layout to work with that playing style by at least keeping the vertical orientation, but not mirroring kick, snare, closed hat.

Yup… I feel like he’s taken it up a notch, now actively dismissing the FGDP devices completely stating: “the mirror layout being a very poor choice for realistic finger drumming, I would recommend all aspiring finger drummers to avoid this device.”

And: “You won’t be able to play realistic finger drums at an advanced level, and your playing will be severely restricted for anything beyond the most basic drum beats.”

I think this is basically misinformation designed to keep students away from other educational resources like my own. It rubs me the wrong way.

That said, by the end of this year I think I will have some more in depth explanations ready in the new version of the Grooving & Improving course and hopefully also in some new YouTube content. There is a good case to be made for working on your hand independence but it’s ridiculous to dismiss alternating or the mirror layout (who have nothing to do with each other) completely.

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Yes, fully agree.

Also I don’t see the point why dismiss other peoples approaches like that. That comes across way overconfident and narrow minded.

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I’m currently thinking of leaning towards a slightly different layout, which takes some QFG layout ideas, but also leaves more space for 16 different sounds and sample triggering / non acoustic drumkit styles.

I have a completely minimal layout, which is just the right 4 pads of Kick, Snare, Hat Closed (HC) and Hat Open (HO). Putting this to the right side allows me to still play it with both hands, the fingers just have to share the pad. The HO goes on top of the HC, instead of left of it. It leaves 12 pads for different sounds. This is actually the same layout that most 4x4 standard layouts have, just rotated by 90°.

Then there’s the “half-size” layout, where I add Cymbal (Crash or Ride), another HC, Snare and Kick, often different samples so there is some more variety. This leaves 8 sample slots free for Toms, Percussion, Sample triggering etc.

Not sure on the full 4x4 layout, maybe something like this?

I see one advantage here: It’s easier for me to reach to the pads left of my “vertical playing axis” than right. It can also evolve from a 4x1, to a 4x2 to 4x4 in a consistent way. And some existing standard layouts like MPC, Bitwig, etc. I can play by just rotating the device.

The half size comes close to my recommendation for a 2x4 actually:

I discovered the same thing with rotating to keep that vertical line going. It’s true that with one vertical line you’re already able to play a lot and with two vertical lines you’re pretty well equipped.

The one obvious nice nice thing to me about “my” layout as opposed to this is the open hi hat between the left and right hands. I use that a lot. For the rest any vertical (2) line(s) is probably fine and tweaking everything around it to suit your needs seems like the sensible thing to do!

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Here’s what I don’t quite understand about the layout debate (as a finger drumming n00b).

When you’re dealing with a really complex pattern, isn’t it going to be difficult no matter what layout you’re using? For example, I’ve been working on a pattern from Addictive Drums (screenshot attached), and it was tough for me to learn—even while using strict alternating hands.

Is there actually a clear advantage to one layout over the other in cases like this? If so, which one, and why? I’m genuinely curious, but my hunch is that patterns like this are just hard for most people, regardless of layout.

Thanks,
-David

Good question! What is interesting is that the layout and/or method used does make some patterns a lot easier to play where others might become impossible to play if you use a certain other layout / method.

It’s often mostly the playing style you choose, but some layouts can sometimes lock you into a specific playing style more than another, so that is how specific layouts play a role, albeit not a major one.

With playing style I mean “do you allow for playing the kick, snare and hi hat with the same hand, or do you split it up and play the hi hat with one hand and the kick and snare with the other”. Or vice versa: “Do you always alternate your hands, or do you also allow for hitting with two hands at the same time”

When you alternate your hands, there is another “sub path” from there, which is "Do I always alternate RLRLRL or do I also alternate other patterns, like RLRRLRLL. That opens up another world of possibilities for efficiently (or simply musically or groovily) playing certain beats

In my experience having all playing style options in your toolbox makes it so that you can “solve” how to play all kinds of beats in a relatively straightforward way. If you commit to always alternating, or always playing everything with independent hands technique, I found that you run into the limitations of both of them and then you find yourself doing difficult things where a simple change of playing approach would allow you to keep things relatively easy for yourself.

The beat you show here I would probably play fully alternating. I’m trying to read from your screenshot so I’m 95% sure I would do it this way, but trying to go for independently playing hi hat, vs kick and snare or using a rudiment pattern here seems like I’m making things more difficult than they have to be. But this really is different for every beat.

Some of my approaches also evolved over the years. In my very old breakbeats course I play Cissy Strut fullly alternating, where I would now go for a rudiment pattern which makes a lot more sense. In 2018 I had no idea though :slight_smile:

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This is a great response, thank you. Basically, don’t be dogmatic: it’s complicated. Deciding on layout/alternating vs. dedicated hands will be case-by-case.

I’ll check out Cissy Strut in the BB section. I’m doing a breadth-first search through the lessons so perhaps I haven’t gotten there yet, but a kick-ass lesson would be to showcase extremes in the two cases: one that is so obviously broken if you use alternating hands and one that is so obviously broken if you use independent hands (and how layout plays into this).

Thanks,
-David